It looks to me like everyone posting here is going out of their way to dance around the issue. The Bible is full of moral absolutes. God has given us Right and Wrong and the ability to choose between them. At the same time, God is full of Love and Mercy...and Judgement.
Just as we as parents love our children no matter what they do, when they do wrong we punish them or accept their punishment if they break the laws of the land; God, our Heavenly Father, also loves us.
Sexual sin is immoral regardless if it is homosexual or heterosexual. When Jesus met the woman caught in adultery, he showed her love and mercy but he also said "Go and sin no more". This is the model we Christians should use.
We should show Love and Compassion, but we should not condone the behavior, just as we do not condone adultery. Niether should we judge them, but God will judge.
Using Jesus as our model we should be willing to talk with them. Sit and eat with them. Be friends with them, invite them to church or fellowship, but we should not be ashamed to speak the truth of God's word to them either, and God's word clearly takes a position on sexual immorality, in ALL it's forms.
People these days are so afraid to take a stand on issues. We teach children that "there are no losers, everyone is a winner". We confuse love with letting people do what ever thay want to do. People somehow think that only heterosexual immorality impacts the community, but homosexual immorality doesn't hurt anyone. This is a lie of Satan.
God created Man and Woman, bringing them together to bear children to create families to worship and glorify Him. But Satan seeks to undermine God's plan. He wants to stop men and women from being joined together, thus spreading these lies about how harmless homosexuality is, and how we, even Christians, need to be so tolerant and accepting of them.
Sexual sin is the greatest weapon Satan has against us humans. God gave us sexuality, but to be enjoyed between man and wife. But it is such a powerful gift. It can be more addicting than any drug if we give in to our desires. It is a constant struggle for everyone at some level.
I think the bottom line for anyone trying to deal with this issue is to be in the Word and in prayer, and God will speak to you and guide you.
Hey. Me again! OK, I LOVED this post so much that I want to print it out and send it in all my Christmas cards!
So, looks like dac and I probably don't see this eye to eye (although we share some similarities - see my comment on Fajita's last entry that I posted kinda late in the game). Anyway, dac, I hear ya... but the way I see it, it probably does look like dancing around the issue... that is, if we're discussing the same issue. You're probably meaning regarding the issue of homosexuality, but I'm more meaning the issue of how Christians treat homosexuals and how the church responds to people who experience same sex attractions. I would wonder if you have very many gay and ex-gay friends... that you do sit and talk and eat with and invite to church. Do they come when you invite them? I do love what you said about how Jesus showed the woman in adultery love and mercy & then told her to "go and sin no more." But we've been doing it backwards for soooo long! "You know, homosexuality is a sin and you're going to hell, but we sure do love you." Hmmmmmmmm..... Yeah, that hasn't been working for us too well.
Anyway, back to the NY pastor... I can tell that comes from the heart of a person who sees and knows homosexuals. A lot of people can talk big after reading the Bible's verses on homosexuality - all puffed up with their knowledge (I've been so guilty of that!), but few really know how to engage a homosexual with THE REST OF THE BIBLE in mind.
For instance... There's a controversy surrounding the "End of the Spear" movie - the continued story of the missionaries killed in Ecuador in the '50s and how their killers came to know God through the survivors of that massacre. The lead actor, Chad Allen, is gay. Yep, a gay activist. So, some brilliant Christians have decided not to see the movie because of that. This totally exemplefies how we've been treating gays (what NY pastor is responding to)... like lepers. It's unfathomable how someone could forfeit learning that beautiful story in order to make a point that homosexuality is wrong.
HOMOSEXUALS ARE NO DIFFERENT THAT US! Some conversations I've had with gay people that draw us closer together involve me sharing my sins and weaknesses (including struggling with internet porn - no, it's not just a guy thing!). It's kinda hard to be judgemental if all Christians came to church wearing their "top 10 sins" on a sign hanging from our necks.
Oh, and you should see Brokeback. I have an ex-gay friend who says the church could learn a lot about the emotional side of homosexuality by seeing this movie.
If you've read this far... thank you so much. I have so much to say... but I'm not sure how much is worth hearing.
Simply put, John 8 has been my guide as I have dealt with people struggling with this issue. Christ showed mercy and love, yet was still able to say, "Go your way and sin no more."
Anything less than both sides of that equation is less than Christ's example, and less than Christianity.
People don't wear signs around their necks identifying their sexual orientations; however, as people do, we tend to label those whom we don't see as fitting into the acceptable criteria of either masculine or feminine behavior.
So I'm wondering whether or not if a gay person who was "out" so to speak came to bible class, came to worship, and if over a period of time decided that they wanted to join that fellowship of Christians, would they be accepted?
I think I know the answer to that question.
Christians can be very cruel or at least that has been my experience and I was just accused of being gay.
Well, anonymous... I know there are exceptions (I hope I'm one - by the grace of God), but I sure think you're right on this one.
On the whole, people have problems with ANYTHING different! (she's too new agey, they're from Korea, he acts retarded, that kid dresses so goth, etc.) Why do we want to be so much alike? I don't get that. I CRAVE diversity. Anything that looks too much the same looks like a cult to me.
Hi, This is Jeff from Communion of the Arts - the NY Pastor of this thread.
I am so desirous of input to my posting, so I was thrilled to find your comments. I have read and am digesting them all.
You are a great group that have gathered here around this blog. I read a good bit of your blog, and with your education and career focus, I am sure you will have some good things to say on this issue as we progress together.
Chris, thanks for the link. That for SURE was worth reading.
I think there are two distinct discussions here. A) How do we treat those who are sinning....which by the way is ALL of us! B) What do we say about the sin itself.
As has already been stated, I can't find a better example of Jesus being full of "grace and truth" than when he dealt with the adulterous woman. He couldn't have showed her any more love and grace than he showed that day, but he also didn't turn a blind eye to her sin. Is there any way we as humans can improve on God's response that day? I think we would be arrogant to say we can. Yeah, let's give the love and grace FIRST.....like he did. After all, isn't love the highest law? All of us accept help better from someone who we know LOVES us! DUH! But, just like with your children (who we love more than anybody) you love them enough to show them where they are messing up. That's what love does. That woman WAS Jesus's child, and he loved her enough to want to help her leave her sin.
It looks to me like everyone posting here is going out of their way to dance around the issue. The Bible is full of moral absolutes. God has given us Right and Wrong and the ability to choose between them. At the same time, God is full of Love and Mercy...and Judgement.
Just as we as parents love our children no matter what they do, when they do wrong we punish them or accept their punishment if they break the laws of the land; God, our Heavenly Father, also loves us.
Sexual sin is immoral regardless if it is homosexual or heterosexual. When Jesus met the woman caught in adultery, he showed her love and mercy but he also said "Go and sin no more". This is the model we Christians should use.
We should show Love and Compassion, but we should not condone the behavior, just as we do not condone adultery. Niether should we judge them, but God will judge.
Using Jesus as our model we should be willing to talk with them. Sit and eat with them. Be friends with them, invite them to church or fellowship, but we should not be ashamed to speak the truth of God's word to them either, and God's word clearly takes a position on sexual immorality, in ALL it's forms.
People these days are so afraid to take a stand on issues. We teach children that "there are no losers, everyone is a winner". We confuse love with letting people do what ever thay want to do. People somehow think that only heterosexual immorality impacts the community, but homosexual immorality doesn't hurt anyone. This is a lie of Satan.
God created Man and Woman, bringing them together to bear children to create families to worship and glorify Him. But Satan seeks to undermine God's plan. He wants to stop men and women from being joined together, thus spreading these lies about how harmless homosexuality is, and how we, even Christians, need to be so tolerant and accepting of them.
Sexual sin is the greatest weapon Satan has against us humans. God gave us sexuality, but to be enjoyed between man and wife. But it is such a powerful gift. It can be more addicting than any drug if we give in to our desires. It is a constant struggle for everyone at some level.
I think the bottom line for anyone trying to deal with this issue is to be in the Word and in prayer, and God will speak to you and guide you.
Hey. Me again! OK, I LOVED this post so much that I want to print it out and send it in all my Christmas cards!
So, looks like dac and I probably don't see this eye to eye (although we share some similarities - see my comment on Fajita's last entry that I posted kinda late in the game). Anyway, dac, I hear ya... but the way I see it, it probably does look like dancing around the issue... that is, if we're discussing the same issue. You're probably meaning regarding the issue of homosexuality, but I'm more meaning the issue of how Christians treat homosexuals and how the church responds to people who experience same sex attractions. I would wonder if you have very many gay and ex-gay friends... that you do sit and talk and eat with and invite to church. Do they come when you invite them? I do love what you said about how Jesus showed the woman in adultery love and mercy & then told her to "go and sin no more." But we've been doing it backwards for soooo long! "You know, homosexuality is a sin and you're going to hell, but we sure do love you." Hmmmmmmmm..... Yeah, that hasn't been working for us too well.
Anyway, back to the NY pastor... I can tell that comes from the heart of a person who sees and knows homosexuals. A lot of people can talk big after reading the Bible's verses on homosexuality - all puffed up with their knowledge (I've been so guilty of that!), but few really know how to engage a homosexual with THE REST OF THE BIBLE in mind.
For instance... There's a controversy surrounding the "End of the Spear" movie - the continued story of the missionaries killed in Ecuador in the '50s and how their killers came to know God through the survivors of that massacre. The lead actor, Chad Allen, is gay. Yep, a gay activist. So, some brilliant Christians have decided not to see the movie because of that. This totally exemplefies how we've been treating gays (what NY pastor is responding to)... like lepers. It's unfathomable how someone could forfeit learning that beautiful story in order to make a point that homosexuality is wrong.
HOMOSEXUALS ARE NO DIFFERENT THAT US! Some conversations I've had with gay people that draw us closer together involve me sharing my sins and weaknesses (including struggling with internet porn - no, it's not just a guy thing!). It's kinda hard to be judgemental if all Christians came to church wearing their "top 10 sins" on a sign hanging from our necks.
Oh, and you should see Brokeback. I have an ex-gay friend who says the church could learn a lot about the emotional side of homosexuality by seeing this movie.
If you've read this far... thank you so much. I have so much to say... but I'm not sure how much is worth hearing.
9 comments:
It looks to me like everyone posting here is going out of their way to dance around the issue. The Bible is full of moral absolutes. God has given us Right and Wrong and the ability to choose between them. At the same time, God is full of Love and Mercy...and Judgement.
Just as we as parents love our children no matter what they do, when they do wrong we punish them or accept their punishment if they break the laws of the land; God, our Heavenly Father, also loves us.
Sexual sin is immoral regardless if it is homosexual or heterosexual. When Jesus met the woman caught in adultery, he showed her love and mercy but he also said "Go and sin no more". This is the model we Christians should use.
We should show Love and Compassion, but we should not condone the behavior, just as we do not condone adultery. Niether should we judge them, but God will judge.
Using Jesus as our model we should be willing to talk with them. Sit and eat with them. Be friends with them, invite them to church or fellowship, but we should not be ashamed to speak the truth of God's word to them either, and God's word clearly takes a position on sexual immorality, in ALL it's forms.
People these days are so afraid to take a stand on issues. We teach children that "there are no losers, everyone is a winner". We confuse love with letting people do what ever thay want to do. People somehow think that only heterosexual immorality impacts the community, but homosexual immorality doesn't hurt anyone. This is a lie of Satan.
God created Man and Woman, bringing them together to bear children to create families to worship and glorify Him. But Satan seeks to undermine God's plan. He wants to stop men and women from being joined together, thus spreading these lies about how harmless homosexuality is, and how we, even Christians, need to be so tolerant and accepting of them.
Sexual sin is the greatest weapon Satan has against us humans. God gave us sexuality, but to be enjoyed between man and wife. But it is such a powerful gift. It can be more addicting than any drug if we give in to our desires. It is a constant struggle for everyone at some level.
I think the bottom line for anyone trying to deal with this issue is to be in the Word and in prayer, and God will speak to you and guide you.
Christ's Peace.
Hey. Me again! OK, I LOVED this post so much that I want to print it out and send it in all my Christmas cards!
So, looks like dac and I probably don't see this eye to eye (although we share some similarities - see my comment on Fajita's last entry that I posted kinda late in the game). Anyway, dac, I hear ya... but the way I see it, it probably does look like dancing around the issue... that is, if we're discussing the same issue. You're probably meaning regarding the issue of homosexuality, but I'm more meaning the issue of how Christians treat homosexuals and how the church responds to people who experience same sex attractions. I would wonder if you have very many gay and ex-gay friends... that you do sit and talk and eat with and invite to church. Do they come when you invite them? I do love what you said about how Jesus showed the woman in adultery love and mercy & then told her to "go and sin no more." But we've been doing it backwards for soooo long! "You know, homosexuality is a sin and you're going to hell, but we sure do love you." Hmmmmmmmm..... Yeah, that hasn't been working for us too well.
Anyway, back to the NY pastor... I can tell that comes from the heart of a person who sees and knows homosexuals. A lot of people can talk big after reading the Bible's verses on homosexuality - all puffed up with their knowledge (I've been so guilty of that!), but few really know how to engage a homosexual with THE REST OF THE BIBLE in mind.
For instance... There's a controversy surrounding the "End of the Spear" movie - the continued story of the missionaries killed in Ecuador in the '50s and how their killers came to know God through the survivors of that massacre. The lead actor, Chad Allen, is gay. Yep, a gay activist. So, some brilliant Christians have decided not to see the movie because of that. This totally exemplefies how we've been treating gays (what NY pastor is responding to)... like lepers. It's unfathomable how someone could forfeit learning that beautiful story in order to make a point that homosexuality is wrong.
HOMOSEXUALS ARE NO DIFFERENT THAT US! Some conversations I've had with gay people that draw us closer together involve me sharing my sins and weaknesses (including struggling with internet porn - no, it's not just a guy thing!). It's kinda hard to be judgemental if all Christians came to church wearing their "top 10 sins" on a sign hanging from our necks.
Oh, and you should see Brokeback. I have an ex-gay friend who says the church could learn a lot about the emotional side of homosexuality by seeing this movie.
If you've read this far... thank you so much. I have so much to say... but I'm not sure how much is worth hearing.
Y'all rock!
Simply put, John 8 has been my guide as I have dealt with people struggling with this issue. Christ showed mercy and love, yet was still able to say, "Go your way and sin no more."
Anything less than both sides of that equation is less than Christ's example, and less than Christianity.
People don't wear signs around their necks identifying their sexual orientations; however, as people do, we tend to label those whom we don't see as fitting into the acceptable criteria of either masculine or feminine behavior.
So I'm wondering whether or not if a gay person who was "out" so to speak came to bible class, came to worship, and if over a period of time decided that they wanted to join that fellowship of Christians, would they be accepted?
I think I know the answer to that question.
Christians can be very cruel or at least that has been my experience and I was just accused of being gay.
Well, anonymous... I know there are exceptions (I hope I'm one - by the grace of God), but I sure think you're right on this one.
On the whole, people have problems with ANYTHING different! (she's too new agey, they're from Korea, he acts retarded, that kid dresses so goth, etc.) Why do we want to be so much alike? I don't get that. I CRAVE diversity. Anything that looks too much the same looks like a cult to me.
Hi, This is Jeff from Communion of the Arts - the NY Pastor of this thread.
I am so desirous of input to my posting, so I was thrilled to find your comments. I have read and am digesting them all.
You are a great group that have gathered here around this blog. I read a good bit of your blog, and with your education and career focus, I am sure you will have some good things to say on this issue as we progress together.
Stay in touch.
Chris, thanks for the link. That for SURE was worth reading.
I think there are two distinct discussions here. A) How do we treat those who are sinning....which by the way is ALL of us! B) What do we say about the sin itself.
As has already been stated, I can't find a better example of Jesus being full of "grace and truth" than when he dealt with the adulterous woman. He couldn't have showed her any more love and grace than he showed that day, but he also didn't turn a blind eye to her sin. Is there any way we as humans can improve on God's response that day? I think we would be arrogant to say we can.
Yeah, let's give the love and grace FIRST.....like he did. After all, isn't love the highest law? All of us accept help better from someone who we know LOVES us! DUH! But, just like with your children (who we love more than anybody) you love them enough to show them where they are messing up. That's what love does. That woman WAS Jesus's child, and he loved her enough to want to help her leave her sin.
Great discussion, Chris!
DU
It looks to me like everyone posting here is going out of their way to dance around the issue. The Bible is full of moral absolutes. God has given us Right and Wrong and the ability to choose between them. At the same time, God is full of Love and Mercy...and Judgement.
Just as we as parents love our children no matter what they do, when they do wrong we punish them or accept their punishment if they break the laws of the land; God, our Heavenly Father, also loves us.
Sexual sin is immoral regardless if it is homosexual or heterosexual. When Jesus met the woman caught in adultery, he showed her love and mercy but he also said "Go and sin no more". This is the model we Christians should use.
We should show Love and Compassion, but we should not condone the behavior, just as we do not condone adultery. Niether should we judge them, but God will judge.
Using Jesus as our model we should be willing to talk with them. Sit and eat with them. Be friends with them, invite them to church or fellowship, but we should not be ashamed to speak the truth of God's word to them either, and God's word clearly takes a position on sexual immorality, in ALL it's forms.
People these days are so afraid to take a stand on issues. We teach children that "there are no losers, everyone is a winner". We confuse love with letting people do what ever thay want to do. People somehow think that only heterosexual immorality impacts the community, but homosexual immorality doesn't hurt anyone. This is a lie of Satan.
God created Man and Woman, bringing them together to bear children to create families to worship and glorify Him. But Satan seeks to undermine God's plan. He wants to stop men and women from being joined together, thus spreading these lies about how harmless homosexuality is, and how we, even Christians, need to be so tolerant and accepting of them.
Sexual sin is the greatest weapon Satan has against us humans. God gave us sexuality, but to be enjoyed between man and wife. But it is such a powerful gift. It can be more addicting than any drug if we give in to our desires. It is a constant struggle for everyone at some level.
I think the bottom line for anyone trying to deal with this issue is to be in the Word and in prayer, and God will speak to you and guide you.
Christ's Peace.
Hey. Me again! OK, I LOVED this post so much that I want to print it out and send it in all my Christmas cards!
So, looks like dac and I probably don't see this eye to eye (although we share some similarities - see my comment on Fajita's last entry that I posted kinda late in the game). Anyway, dac, I hear ya... but the way I see it, it probably does look like dancing around the issue... that is, if we're discussing the same issue. You're probably meaning regarding the issue of homosexuality, but I'm more meaning the issue of how Christians treat homosexuals and how the church responds to people who experience same sex attractions. I would wonder if you have very many gay and ex-gay friends... that you do sit and talk and eat with and invite to church. Do they come when you invite them? I do love what you said about how Jesus showed the woman in adultery love and mercy & then told her to "go and sin no more." But we've been doing it backwards for soooo long! "You know, homosexuality is a sin and you're going to hell, but we sure do love you." Hmmmmmmmm..... Yeah, that hasn't been working for us too well.
Anyway, back to the NY pastor... I can tell that comes from the heart of a person who sees and knows homosexuals. A lot of people can talk big after reading the Bible's verses on homosexuality - all puffed up with their knowledge (I've been so guilty of that!), but few really know how to engage a homosexual with THE REST OF THE BIBLE in mind.
For instance... There's a controversy surrounding the "End of the Spear" movie - the continued story of the missionaries killed in Ecuador in the '50s and how their killers came to know God through the survivors of that massacre. The lead actor, Chad Allen, is gay. Yep, a gay activist. So, some brilliant Christians have decided not to see the movie because of that. This totally exemplefies how we've been treating gays (what NY pastor is responding to)... like lepers. It's unfathomable how someone could forfeit learning that beautiful story in order to make a point that homosexuality is wrong.
HOMOSEXUALS ARE NO DIFFERENT THAT US! Some conversations I've had with gay people that draw us closer together involve me sharing my sins and weaknesses (including struggling with internet porn - no, it's not just a guy thing!). It's kinda hard to be judgemental if all Christians came to church wearing their "top 10 sins" on a sign hanging from our necks.
Oh, and you should see Brokeback. I have an ex-gay friend who says the church could learn a lot about the emotional side of homosexuality by seeing this movie.
If you've read this far... thank you so much. I have so much to say... but I'm not sure how much is worth hearing.
Y'all rock!
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