tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post110740374976457819..comments2024-02-12T22:18:04.208-06:00Comments on In Theory: Post-Restoration Hope #10: Leadership, Women, and the Low HurdlesFajitahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05704189756009543355noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-52702369774316581522011-05-17T08:57:15.829-05:002011-05-17T08:57:15.829-05:00i'm not church of christ, but have hit up agai...i'm not church of christ, but have hit up against much of what you've described here - you have written it well, thank you! it gives me, as a woman, great hope that my daughter may not have to endure the silencing i have in my near 35 years in the church.bobbiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09236324338161051924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107633141020245272005-02-05T13:52:00.000-06:002005-02-05T13:52:00.000-06:00i'm not church of christ, but have hit up against ...i'm not church of christ, but have hit up against much of what you've described here - you have written it well, thank you! it gives me, as a woman, great hope that my daughter may not have to endure the silencing i have in my near 35 years in the church.bobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09236324338161051924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107490379518514042005-02-03T22:12:00.000-06:002005-02-03T22:12:00.000-06:00Yes, you have the promotion system of church leade...Yes, you have the promotion system of church leadership identified. Really, the way the CofC does this is just not in the Bible. Weren't elders (pastors) appointed by the evangelists? Don't think the elders in the NT were exactly like what we have now.<br />I so agree with you on your thoughts on women's issues. Do I sound like someone that would enjoy teaching preschool?jettybettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04351615360394477260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107468833370896722005-02-03T16:13:00.000-06:002005-02-03T16:13:00.000-06:00I know that most elders are not in it for the powe...I know that most elders are not in it for the power. But I also know many of them cannot help but exercise it. And some, yes, are driven to abuse with it. Elders, preachers, anyone who can get their hands on the power. I have been badly treated by elders in a church once upon a time (this church no longer even exists). Deception, control, manipulation, and and handful of other evil tricks were used on me (and several other), all with loving tones and firm hugs. <br /><br />It's been almost ten years since that happened and I can still feel the wounds every now and again - like a touch arthritis in the soul when the weather turns. But it is not bad pain - it has a purpose. As James T. Kirk once said, "I need my pain." ON this point I do need my pain. I want to remember what it is like to be abused because I never want to do that to anyone else.Fajitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05704189756009543355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107460465975954012005-02-03T13:54:00.000-06:002005-02-03T13:54:00.000-06:00Keith, your comment about your wife's gifts made m...Keith, your comment about your wife's gifts made me think about one of my wife's gifts, in which she does take an active part in "corporate" worship services. She is an interpreter for the deaf, and I guess she is not in a "leadership" role, and she is definitely remaining silent, so it has never once been questioned by anybody in the four different places we've lived and she has served this way. I can't imagine anyone even raising an objection to this.<br /><br />However, if there were women helping to serve the Lord's supper, (not praying or speaking, just standing up and passing it along) it would be an issue to be dealt with. What's the difference? I would think the serving would even be less an "up-front" role than the interpreting would, because Suzi has to paraphrase a lot of stuff that just doesn't translate into ASL, and is thereby tweaking the message a bit. But nobody even thinks a thing about that, and praises her for her service.<br /><br />I think we are just comfortable with some things, and not with others, and there is a great range of things that are good and "scriptural" that we are simply not comfortable with, but need to be.dutrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04851479289037759839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107455954299960002005-02-03T12:39:00.000-06:002005-02-03T12:39:00.000-06:00Elders at Highland in Abilene have developed a "sh...Elders at Highland in Abilene have developed a "shepherding" model, too; as well as investigating women's gifts (I'm avoiding the word 'roles,' can't you tell?).<br /><br />My favorite anecdote about this subject is about the preacher - who will remain unnamed - who was approached by a colleague at a lectureship a few years back with this: "Well, I suppose you've got women serving communion at your church now." His response was, "Well, yes - side-to-side; just not front-to-back yet."<br /><br />There are lots of people questing about women's gifts and their use beyond there; the <A HREF="http://www.blogger.com/r?http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gal328.org%2F">Gal3:28</A> group, for one. It frustrates me often to see my wife's gifts neglected in our assemblies; for crying out loud, she has even advised the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service on techniques of reconciliation!<br /><br />Whenever there's a "women's event" at church and she or one of the other blessed ladies there speaks or prays or sings, I'm always frustrated about what I'm missing out on.<br /><br />Keep preaching, brother Fajita.Keith Brentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08370891993969932472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107452780991603842005-02-03T11:46:00.000-06:002005-02-03T11:46:00.000-06:00I think I lost my electronic copy of the rules unl...I think I lost my electronic copy of the rules unless it is at home. I know I have a hard copy that I will scan and post tommorrow. The scary thing is that the first time I saw it I thought it was from a "real" church.believingthomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07278359951689938736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107450698393565432005-02-03T11:11:00.000-06:002005-02-03T11:11:00.000-06:00TCS,
I would love to have acopy of the CHurch of ...TCS,<br /><br />I would love to have acopy of the CHurch of Christ Rules. I'm kind of giggling already just thinking about it.Fajitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05704189756009543355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107447287973911542005-02-03T10:14:00.000-06:002005-02-03T10:14:00.000-06:00I too found the developmental process funny. Alth...I too found the developmental process funny. Although you left out a step. #5 really has a part A and B. You get lead the closing prayer any number of times before you get to lead the "big one" you know the one after the first two songs, it is characterized by being longer than most, the longer the better. It reminds me of a thing I received once called "The church of Christ rules" Have you seen it? Maybe I should dig that up and post it.<br /><br />On a more serious note, I really think most elders are just stuck in a system that they inherited and can't see how to change...so they become managers instead of shephards. I know of two congregations that have changed this model to where there is a team of "deacons" (not what they call them, but I will for the sake of common understanding) that oversee the other deacons or minstry leaders. This team takes away all the "power" of business decision and frees the Elders to shepard the sheep. I am sure this is happening elsewhere, but I think it removes some of the problems.believingthomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07278359951689938736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107445401206127552005-02-03T09:43:00.000-06:002005-02-03T09:43:00.000-06:00Chris- you continue to speak to a place where my h...Chris- you continue to speak to a place <A HREF="http://www.blogger.com/r?http%3A%2F%2Fmattritchie.blogspot.com%2F2005%2F01%2Fputting-end-to-church-chat.html">where my heart has been dwelling a lot lately</A>. With every one of these posts, I'm becoming more and more certain that I am a post-restorationist.<br /><br />Keep it up, friend!Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00846573838270770592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107445138434904492005-02-03T09:38:00.000-06:002005-02-03T09:38:00.000-06:00I have encountered elders driven by power lust. M...I have encountered elders driven by power lust. My grandparents were pushed, shoved and abused out of their congregation 4 or 5 years ago. They had served there for more than 30 years. They, and many of their generation, were forced to leave. One couple (again, members for decades) were told fellowship was being removed from them because of public, unrepentant sin. The gentleman asked, 'What sin?' The elders involved said, 'You used to smoke, didn't you?' The gentleman replied, 'Yes, when I was a teenager.' The elders confirmed that was the sin they meant.<br /><br />After several dozen older members (not just older by age, but by years of service) were gone, the elders took upon all the responsibility of the various committees that had existed. There may have been financial corruption in some of the things that have gone on since then, and now the church is gasping for breath.<br /><br />Elders, like any humans in leadership roles, are vulnerable to the corrupting effects of power. This may not merit the first position in a ranked list of historical problems, but it exists and deserves to be continually prayed over.Greg Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01174779426720766469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107444434622859362005-02-03T09:27:00.000-06:002005-02-03T09:27:00.000-06:00I think that's what I meant by thankless. We have...I think that's what I meant by thankless. We have all been armchair quarterbacks after the game is over saying "why didn't they do this" or "that was a boneheaded move" by the elders, and it IS a setup. I really appreciate the ones who will take on that responsiblity knowing that they're going to get criticized.dutrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04851479289037759839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107442692773224492005-02-03T08:58:00.000-06:002005-02-03T08:58:00.000-06:00Don, you confirmed my suspicions about myself that...Don, you confirmed my suspicions about myself that I may have come on too strong about the leader's power thing. I don't think it is derived of powerlust (although some it) as much as it is the expectation of the office (position) itself. <br /><br />I dare anyone to become an elder and avoid being thrust into a power role. "You're the elder, you do it." <br /><br />Eldership is a setup under the current system. "You make all the decisions so I can sit back and pelt you with criticism."Fajitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05704189756009543355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107441803363666292005-02-03T08:43:00.000-06:002005-02-03T08:43:00.000-06:00Chris, I was laughing all the way through the deve...Chris, I was laughing all the way through the development (egg, pupa, nymph, butterfly) stages of the male in church. I recognized each of those stages, as did many of your readers. I know it wasn't meant totally for comic effect, but it was there, anyway.<br /><br />I would only disagree with one point in your whole post today, and that would be when you imply (or openly state, I can't remember which, and don't have it pulled up on the screen) that a lot of the reason for the laity/clerical positioning is the desire for power on the part of the elders. I don't think I've EVER met an elder who was doing it for power or position. I know there must be a few out there, but as I think back on the elders I have known, they have all been humble servants who were just trying to do what they felt was right. This may come across in pronouncements now and then that sound arbitrary (and might be), but I've never known the motive to be powerlust. In fact, I think most of them would tell you it is a lot of hard work, and mostly a thankless job. I think 99% of the blame for the situation lays in your second point, and that is the failure of more of us to get involved on our own.<br /><br />Your comments about the wasted talents of women are particularly good, and should be published somewhere. Maybe I can find a powerful media magnate and get her to help with that.<br /><br />Keep prodding us, bro. I think you are doing what you need to be doing, even though you aren't in Duluth.dutrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04851479289037759839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107434440976694092005-02-03T06:40:00.000-06:002005-02-03T06:40:00.000-06:00It is just like with our children, they usually wi...It is just like with our children, they usually will not rise higher than our expectations. For too long we have expected NOTHING from our members other than attendance or the "front and center" things you mentioned.<br /><br />Most people want grow unless pushed a little or at the very least challenged. And yes, I have done more than my fair share of "This little light of mine"Donna Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01591270068580850954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7439195.post-1107406398202889062005-02-02T22:53:00.000-06:002005-02-02T22:53:00.000-06:00amen, dear brother-in-law. Great stuff. Love you, ...amen, dear brother-in-law. Great stuff. Love you, man. WHEN ARE YOU COMING TO SEE US?Brandon Scott Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03945502638721214409noreply@blogger.com